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thank you, tracy, very much. i want to thanktracy and naomi kimbell who have been working on organizing and getting us together again.as tracy said, this is the second in a series that we hope to continue. it's really exploratory-- opportunity to try to get together across the globe, really, with a number of differentpeople from a couple of different countries, as well as the united states, and a conversation,really, about ecology and disability. the ecology really comes from some of our workin rural communities and realizing the study of disability and rural communities is reallya study of community ecology. really focusing on the environment. our work has been influencedsignificantly by the world health organization international classification of function.we have been working diligently in a number

of different ways, as others have, aroundthe world, to develop measures of the environment, measures of participation, new methods formeasuring those factors. and, new ways of even understanding disability, itself. partof what has interested me i think, and in particular, in the last couple of years, hasbeen a series of encounters and conversations with people from a broad range of disciplinesthat either are using methods that may apply in that way, or doing things that are addressingissues of the environment, as they may affect people with disabilities. or even today, measuringand collecting data that might be able to include people with disabilities examiningportions or elements of participation that are unique and different in many ways. wehave been trying to organize and hope to continue

to hold a series of small conversations withinterested folks, really reaching across, as many disciplinary boundaries as we possiblycan. our first conversation included paul lukacs from wildlife biology, talking aboutmethods of tracking organisms and wildlife. trying to understand the relationship to theirhabitat and the ecology. at the same time, david gray, having an opportunity to talkabout some of the work he's doing using internet technology and google maps. trying to geta handle on where people with disabilities go within communities and what they do whenthey are there in the kinds of environments they are encountering. in that process, asthis past year, one of the folks i ran into at a conference in missoula, a faculty mentor,wayne freimund, and i got talking with some

folks around the conversation about protectedareas or national parks in africa. we were talking about how they track elephants andsome of the wildlife biology. wayne mentioned they were collecting data on parks visitorsin the united states, to begin to try to get an understanding of the way that the engagementof individual visitors -- how that plays out. and, was wondering if there was a connection,potentially, to be made in understanding potential participants with disabilities. so, it isa great delight to have wayne join us today, give us a view of what they are looking atwithin this kind of broad notion of engagement in wilderness and national parks. helpingus understand a little bit about how people's people with disabilities might be includedin some of that are how we can help understand

those issues. at the same time, today, craigravesloot is going to talk about some of the research and development he has been leadingin using ecological momentary assessment and measurement assistance to track the engagementof people with disabilities here in missoula. so, absolutely thrilled the two of you guysare able to talk with us today and i hope the conversation unfolds in an interestingway. having said that, i think wayne, would love to have you go first and give us an ideaor notion of what parks management is and what you are trying to gain and understandthe engagement of people in national parks. can everybody hear me okay? yes.

first, let me say thank you to tom and tracy,who have put all this together. and do see the powerpoint? everything worked so well,yesterday, tracy. yes. everything looks great. i'm keeping ourline on mute for the presentation. we have multiple people in the room. i will most likelycommunicate with you in the presenter chat box. okay. i think that's going to work out okay.sometimes i lose the screen here. first, let me say thanks to tom and to tracy for organizingthis and the invitation to participate. i hope that some of what i can share with youall today has some relevance to the work you are doing. i have to admit i'm very selfishin this interaction because i really want

to see the kinds of things that you are doing.i think we can adapt some of your technologies and data collection approaches to make a difference. i'm going to talk how we've used technologyover the years to help us understand national park visitors and i'm going to focus in onthat data collection piece. for us, it's got two roles. one is to help us collect dataefficiently. the other is to help us communicate and communicate with visitors and communicatewith each other and community members. that's a big part of it for us. let me give you alittle background. i've been at the university of montana for 20 years. i teach in a parktourism and recreation management program. these kinds of programs around the countryare very involved with all aspects of civil

society, including people with disabilities,and programs that are trying to better understand how to integrate nature into all of society. we look at, i think, a lot of the same kindsof questions that you guys do. we are guided by generally issues of quality of life. whenyou think about the role of outdoor recreation, tourism, nature protection, environmentaleducation, they often times are viewed as these things enriching an individual, enrichinga society and whatnot. so, that's really kind of where i think we have a lot of common groundto coalesce. we also spend a lot of our time thinking about how people benefit from theseinteractions with nature. there is lots of reasons for that. personal growth and thealtruistic ones. organizations that are allocating

resources and time toward provision of servicesalways needs a way to understand the impacts of their work. we are very interested in howan outdoor experience influences a person, hopefully, in a positive and quality way.when i think about our land managers, they have an additional obligation to try to providequality services to society. they have to be able to understand the impact of theirdecisions and that sort of thing, as well. that's often how they will engage people likeme. they have a plan that's going to occur and they need help understanding how societywould be affected by their decisions. so, we've involved ourselves with a lot of differentnational park research over the years. usually in a planning context, trying to think ofa desired condition or reacting to some kind

of a problem. my colleagues would probablyrefer to me as an early adopter of technological tools. we have these issues of communicatingcomplex systems amongst one another and i was an early person in our field to jump intousing computer mediated devices to help us deal with these things. i'm going to take you through a little odysseyof that evolution and try to end in a place that will facilitate some conversation forus. so, we started out with basically using computer mediated imagery to both collectdata and help communicate complex situations. i'll just show you that real quick at archesnational park. over time, we�ve tried to incorporate more sensory, multisensory kindsof things. there's quite a bit of research

going on with soundscapes, for example. orunderstanding night skies. those things are really broadening the demands for technology,to improve that. we also have a lot of interest in understandingwhere people are. where they go, how fast they get there, what their experience is likewhen they are there and what their evaluative reflections are after having an experience.i'm going to take us through a series of studies that illustrate some of these things realquickly and spend the most time on this notion of tracking visitors, radio collaring peopleas my colleague, paul lukacs can radio collar elks. we have the same kind of interest andunderstanding movement dynamics. one of our issues in national parks his popularity.i would imagine most of you in this audience

have been to a place where you think, wow,this is beautiful but so crowded. that's a problem visitors express to park managersvery continuously. there is a long tradition of research to understand how to draw theline somewhere. when do we have too many people here? what happens, over time, people engageand adapt. they cope with the setting of how many people they actually interacted withwhen they had a negative experience. we used, early on, photoshop. this is before therewas a 1.0. this was a very, very first version of photoshop to lay out a range of possiblesettings that people could see and then react to. it was a wonderful communication tool,plus, it gave us some very good data through which we could see qualitative differencesin how people were evaluating settings in

terms of the acceptability of the conditionsthat they would see or experience. this gave us a way to get everybody on the same pagewhen i'm talking about 100 people versus 20 people, how acceptable that would be for peopleto run into. this seems like very rudimentary stuff now, but it was quite a breakthroughat the time. until then, we were very much dealing with my imagination versus yours,versus somebody else. they could tell us things weren't right, but they had a very hard timetelling us what wasn't right. this removed that burden from the people wewere collecting data from. these kinds of pictures were really helpful when we wouldtalk to community members and people involved with economic relationships to parks, whomight want more and more and more. quickly,

they could see there is a potential for overdoingit, economic exploitation, to where even their customers would start to experience a poorkind of experience and not come back. all right. that was useful for things likecrowding, but also looking at restoration efforts, targeting different kinds of settingdesigns and that sort of thing. here is a series of pictures at zion national park wherewe were looking at how people would make trade-offs for experience quality relative to access.people said, yes, we want the trails to be this nice. if, indeed, that means we don'tget to go there or experience it the way we wanted to, we are willing to make that tradeoff. in this case, unfortunately, that was the original one.

the park, then, had good guidance to go backand make a difficult decision about access versus quality. okay. so, that was kind of our early beginnings,thinking about the world is a highly visual place. we know there is more to it than thatand got a chance to start thinking about some multisensory ways of collecting data. again,we will stay at a place in zion national park that is highly popular and a beautiful place.they had just put in a shuttle system to increase access for visitors, get them off of gridlockon the roads. that created a lot of demand into the canyons, which created crowding.it also creates kind of an echoing effect. in this case, we did a study where we comparedthe number of people that you would encounter

from this crowding perspective, but also addedhow the sound quality would affect the visitors� acceptability ratings. so, we sat in this area with recording devices,highly sensitive sound sensors, got a good distribution of decibel level than createdan quasi-experimental design in a lab that enabled us to get repetitions of differentsetting attributes that were including both sound levels and number of people in a picture.hopefully, you can hear this. this is the sound of the virgin river when there isn'tanybody there. very very peaceful. beautiful. when the shuttle system was put in place andthe cars were taken out, one of the first things people noticed was they could hearthe river and they could hear the birds because

the noise of the traffic wasn't in the way.but then, you have human sounds. [sound of canyon and people talking] so, in this case, when we looked at the datafrom it, we found out that the number of people in the setting wasn't nearly as importantas their behavior and the sound of the people, the soundscape. when you look at this graph,you see -- whether it's natural sound -- a low volume of human sound and a high volumeof human sound -- and, then the number of the people you would encounter at any giventime. the third column is the acceptability ratings. a high number of people with naturalsound was far more acceptable than a low number of people with even a low amount of humansound. that helps us understand the multisensory

part of this,that we have to think about theentire ecology of the interaction that people are having with the natural environment. okay. i�m sure i'm getting close to my time,but i want to show one more example. it's a typical kind of problem that i get intowhere -- and this is the case in yellowstone park -- where the managers came to us andsaid, we feel like there's an increasing level of demand for slough creek, which is a reallynice part of yellowstone. it kind of got found after the wolf reintroduction occurred. it'sa popular campground, a great place to fish. it felt, to them, like used levels were increasingbut they didn't have good data on how the place was being used. it's a sensitive areaso they thought there was proliferation of

ecological impact from visitors that mightbe happening incrementally over time. so, this is what slough creek looks like.it's a beautiful part of northeast yellowstone. these kinds of trails occur when people walkthere informally. this is a trail you can see that's happening because of fly fishing,primarily right along the stream. we did a number of actions for them to monitor howuse was happening on one was to find out how many people were there and for that we usedinfrared trail counters and we are still using improved versions of these in other partslike glacier, right now. we needed to know how many people were there. we wanted a senseof who was there. through basic observations, we were able to get use-type group size, estimateof age and whether they had special gear,

like photography or fly fishing. we wanted to know where they went, so we gotthem to carry gps units with them so we could see how their routes were working out. weended up with this kind of data. let's see if this is going to work. tracy, something isn�t� -- there we go.if you can see the movement of these data points, this would be a composite day, maybe150 people going through the motion of what they did. we collected data through a wholesummer. if we put a day�s worth of it together, you can see how people used this area. thisis the picture you saw here. we are working our way through the day. now it�s threehours, four hours from when the day had started.

you can see how the pattern of use has workedits way through. we learned a lot just by seeing the patterns of the way things wearbeing used. from that, we�re able to recommend to them that they had, basically, three zonesof use. one type of visitor that just wanted to get up here and see the view and come back.there was another type of visitor that got going very early in the morning, and wantedto get deep in and fish and then come back. they spent all day up there. then there werethese folks kind of in the middle. we were able to say, first of all, the use in themeadow is very patterned. if you wanted to build some trails, you could minimize impactsyou�re worried about. second, is that the people looking for solitude are getting itbecause they start early and they move fast

and get up there. they tend to be males, over45 years old, who are fly fishing. they�re getting what they want. and down here, thepeople are also getting what they want. we revealed that the problems weren't nearlyas bad as the staff thought it might be, and everybody was real grateful just to have somedata to communicate reality. it took away a lot of fear. then, we recommended a kindof zoning approach for them to think about it. i don't know if you can see these, butyou�ve got a high use zone, and sort of an intensive use zone, where you�re goingto have to do some manipulation, and then you�ve got a group that sort of takes careof themselves beyond that. another example is the chaco culture in anotherpark we worked at where they were interested

in maintaining access to these highly sensitiveruins. and, the way chaco works, there's a road that comes in and the two most popularsets of ruins are this one called pueblo bonito and this one called chetro ketl. there�sa parking lot that regulates the amount of access that occurs to these places. the conventionalwisdom was that when a parking lot was full, everybody was going to go to pueblo bonitoat the same time and create a problem with crowding and access. so, we gps-ed peopleagain to see how they actually do use it. what we found, here�s the parking lot, isthat an awful lot of people went counterclockwise instead of the way staff thought it was happening.our impression of reality was different than the real world. in fact, they took 12 distinctiveroutes to get to this place. they were never

there at the same time. the crowding wasn'toccurring. the only times that it was really crowded was when the park staff would bringin an interpretive group of 30 or 40 people at a time. again, being able to track wherepeople go and how they use the place gives us a lot of information. my last one i will quickly talk about is thatglacier national park where we�re working on a management plan associated with the road.the going to the sun road is being transformed from something that looked like this to somethingthat looks like this and brought back into compliance with safety and everything else.in the process, we put in a shuttle system to make it more accessible, which is great.it gets some cars off the road and it makes

it available for people that don't like todrive. these shuttles are accessible to people with disabilities. it really is a nice feature.however, it's changed the use patterns on a number of the trails that are connectedto the road. so, we put up a bunch of infrared trail counters to find out how many peoplewere where and how that varies by time. we also put counters on the road. so now, i canpredict if i know the green lines here are the number of cars gong on the road, the yellowlines are when they get to the center of the park at logan pass. the blue lines are howmany people are one of the key trails, the highline trail. you can see a very nice patternin these distribution. is extremely easy to model. if we know how many cars are goingup the road, we can predict quite accurately

how many people will be on the trail throughoutthe day. then, we�re able to ask people the qualityof their experience relative to crowding, how pristine the area is, what kind of non-naturalsounds are occurring--airplane flights, encountering wildlife, experiencing solitude and then equatethat back to the number of people or the trouble with parking that they might have had as theyget going. so, that's an example of a series of differentkinds of approaches we've used to collect data electronically in different ways to bettercommunicate and understand patterns of use by people. we've used different tools as theybecome available. right now, the kinds of app based products enable a much more real-timein situ -- into data collection process and

we've been able to do in the past. we don'treally need absolute real-time and we seldom have good cell coverage. but for the visitors,or anybody, regarding facilities, access, driving ability, all that stuff, if they couldcollect and give us data while they are actually having the experience, it would be super valuable.we found over the years that data is really helpful because all of us fall into the trapof whatever our basic mental model is about the way places are being used. and almostevery time we�ve done one of these studies, we�ve been quite surprised by something.there is either more use going on, or the patterns of use are quite different than everybodyexpected, including the scientists. so, i'm looking forward to the next presentation becausei really hope that we can start to learn from

you how to better use some of these technologiesand we would very much like to be able to better integrate people with disabilitiesand their situations into this kind of data collection. that's been a really strong themeof research within the whole park and recreation and the leisure studies field. so, i thinkthere is hopefully a lot of common ground. with that, i will conclude. [laughter] that was interesting. wayne, i can't tell you how just wonderful i found your presentation.i hope we can continue this conversation. i would start off with a really quick question.there is so many observations that, to me,

link. could you talk about the importanceof the use of data in management and having a receptive audience or setting or systemto be addressing and how information fits within the management structure? yes. that the reason they call [laughter],so i am very grateful about this. certainly our federal land managers, and at the stateand local levels, as well, they function in a scientific management paradigm. they reallyhave to be able to justify their decisions in the context of an environmental impactand take alternative approaches for decision-making. especially if those decisions are going toadversely affect one sector of society or another. we often find ourselves in a situationwhere we can't perfectly harmonize things.

we do have to preference one value over anotherand, so, science is one way they can come into that with a more objective way to lookat the situation. they are super grateful. not every place is as progressive as, forexample, glacier national park, to include social science. but, it's a language thatpeople understand pretty well and for the most part, they�re super grateful when wecan come in and give them decisions. information that will help them with their decisions.the other interesting thing that i've found, is that within the management ranks, we havevery wide opinions about what you should do. i was in a call yesterday with a set of colleaguesfrom yellowstone park, for example. they are really struggling with how they can bettercommunicate safety messages about bears. they

have tragic things happen relative to peopleand bears sometimes there. one side of the argument is saying we need to show a lot offorce and shock and awe these people so they will understand the risks and they will behavebetter. the other side of the equation, they are in a good mood and happy, they are onvacation. if you come in with that approach, they�re not going to understand what you'retalking about and they�re probably going to write you off. so, they were having thatkind of a debate. at first, the scientists in the group sided with the heavy-handed approach,and then they did research and found out there were other ways that would strategically workbetter and help improve the experience for folks. that data is what tipped that scientificmind back toward the other approach. so you

can see just the struggle within is very valuedriven and any time you can have objective data; it's super helpful. if there are other questions from the attendeestoday for wayne, we will take a couple of more minutes, specifically, to his presentation.after both presenters today, we will have a good chunk of time to have a broader discussion.before we move on to craig's presentation, is there anyone who would like to ask a questionto wayne? please remember to unmute your line if youdo have a question or type it into the text chat box. hi tracy, this is billy altom. awesome presentation,wayne. really enjoyed that. one of the things

that crossed my mind and watching it, is asa person who uses a wheelchair, and as tom has talked about a lot in measuring how communities-- how people get about and move around in a community, i thought that would be an awesomestudy to see how people move in a community and that way you can judge what you are doing.where you put your accessible features, how to start your plan, as opposed to startingat the wrong end working your way in. this way, you work your way in and out. i wantedto make that comment. i thought it was a great presentation and i would love to be one ofthe participants at some point, in seeing how things and folks move about. thanks, billy. that's a great observation.if you look at a place like glacier, or even

yellowstone for that manner, so much of wherepeople go is a legacy of decisions that were made a long time ago and the infrastructurewas developed. these planning moments are a chance to say, is our infrastructure inthe right place? are people going where they go because that's where we funnel them? or,would they prefer something different. i think tracking activity and movement would be great,but to be able to do that and collect evaluative data at the same time from somebody like you,for example. okay. this is where i could go. where i wanted to get to was here, and startto see those gaps would be super informative, i think. it's getting so easy. i bet you have a smartphonebilly and you could turn on your gps and follow

you around for a few days. [laughter]thanks, billy, for your question. i think this is a good question and a good segwayinto craig�s presentation. thank you so much, wayne. i'm sure there will be more questionsdirected your way near the end of the seminar today. so, craig? wayne, thank you very much. i appreciatedthat talk quite a lot and was debating between asking to change my major and a new careerpath or some kind of joint work ahead of us. i want to talk about work we've been doingat the rural institute over the past three years, now. describe how we've used similarkinds of methods and give an overview of where we are at with that. we are in the final yearof the project, which is a no-cost extension

from the agency that funded the project andwe are heavy into analysis, even as we speak. the names on the screen, and there are others,what a dream team of people that came together and quite a collaborative effort from thedata collection to the programming and analysis. this was quite an effort and quite a team.i want to call out to these guys and to nidrr for the funding. what i want to do today is give a brief backgroundfor what it is we're trying to accomplish. give you a sense of the methods that we usedto collect the data and again go through some preliminary results from the project. givea sampling of the kinds of things we are looking at. everything is preliminary at this point.we�re still trying to unpack and get to

some final results on these things and getsome things published. it's taken a little while to get to this point for reasons i thinkyou�ll understand as we go along. by way of background, folks in the disability arenaprobably have some familiarity with international classification of function of the world healthorganization in 2001. they published a heuristic that was intended to show that impairmentsof the body functions and structures are going to be related to some kind of health condition,disorder, disease process. potentially, it would have an impact on people's activitiesand participation. the personal factors and environmental factors will influence all ofthat. here�s this model that seems to have arrows pointing everywhere suggesting thatit is clearly a dynamic model. what we are

going to do is look at impairments as they'vebeen defined by questions in the american community survey. to that, one of the purposesof our project was to look at how pain stacks up with regard to participation. we wantedto tease out in this model, some of the influences that may be due to impairments, pain, environmentalfactors with the outcome, the eye on the prize being participation. by way of background,seekins and colleagues published a nice, systematic review on participation. and that, suggesteda typology for talking about our measures of participation and suggested three differenttypes. the first a static measure, which is essentially a retrospective recall of a setof behaviors with limited information about the context of those behaviors. just kindof what do people do. they suggested that

maybe there�s an an interactive model, aswell. you get recall of behavior and the environmental conditions where it occurred, and then finallya dynamic measure, where you can measure the interaction of behavior and environments inreal time in some way. those static measures tend to be a snapshot of participation usingrecall, often using computer-assisted testing or paper and pencil surveys, a snapshot ofwhat happened in your recent past. the dynamic measures are going to use direct observationor in the case of what we did, electronic diaries to collect data in real-time to understandwhat people's experiences are and when they are in place. moving to the methods, i willshow you how we got to the group that i have some results for today. we began to randomlyselect 10,000 households in five zip codes

in the missoula valley and we sent all those10,000 households, which represented approximately 22,000 people according to the u.s. censusdata -- we sent them all letter and a postcard that said if someone in her household cananswer yes to any of these disability screener questions, and that person would be willingto complete a survey, we'll send you a survey. all they had to do is drop a postcard in themail. if it comes back, we send them a survey. the disability screeners, there are six. hearing,or are you deaf of have serious difficulty hearing, visual, blind or have serious difficultyseeing, cognitive because of physical, mental or emotional condition. do you have seriousdifficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions. difficulty remembering,making decisions, talking, difficulty walking

or climbing stairs, dressing our bathing.finally, errands, or as the census likes to call this independent living, which we don'tlike to call it that. but because of a physical, mental or emotional condition, do you havedifficulty doing errands alone? so those are the questions people can answer yes to. . wesent out just over 600 postcards and 525 of those people returned the survey. the lastquestion on the survey was whether or not they would be interested in participatingin another project and we were able to contact and collect data from 116 people between theages of 18 to 65. this represented about one third of the people who completed the survey.the survey, itself, since we sent to general population and you start to cut that backthe expected percentage of people that would

have impairments in the missoula valley, whichis around 13% and then you start to work towards return rates, it�s a return rate somewhereshort of 20% of the eligible population we were able to survey. and then again, the emagroup was somewhat smaller than that. by way of demographics, 116 people 18 to 65,were on average 52 years old, predominantly female, white, about half were married. there�sa ice distribution across income. we've got about one quarter with high school, ged, athird with college, one quarter with bachelor�s degree and then just short of 10% with higherdegree than bachelors. about a quarter lived alone, 50% make in between $20 to $30,000annually for the family. 20% with income more than $50,000. 60% were not employed. 14% approximatelywere part-time and 27% were full-time employees.

44% of our sample were drawing social security,these are fairly close to our longitudinal survey data and i've looked at that in comparisonto census data for the area and we are not far off, including all of these demographics.it looks like a nice representative sample of these, demographically, for people withimpairments. in terms of these 116 people, the impairments they checked are going tosum to more than 116 because people could check more than one impairment. average painwas collected differently. we had 19 folks with hearing impairments. 10 with visual,50 are cognitive, 82 with walking, dressing and bathing was 39, and then 61 had an averagepain that was above four on a zero to ten scale. that's fairly close to the mean. that'swhat we defined as the group that were limited

by pain in some way. the asterisks, the numbers for hearing andvisual are there because that's low subgroup analysis to help us remember that when weget to later results, anything on those groups will be underpowered and unstable. for theema data collection, itself, we brought people into groups of approximately 20 folks in eachgroup and gave them 90 minute training of how to use the device in response to the prompts.we produced a very nice training manual that had screenshots that people could look at.they actually had training devices that people could use to practice putting in entries.we went through what each of the prompts meant to help them get an understanding of the differentquestions being asked and what was intended.

he could put a lot more information in a trainingmanual about what a particular prompt meant on the screen of any device. i will show youthat in a minute. the devices were programmed to prompt peoplewith two-hour s between 9:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. they got about six prompts a day andwe ran the study for 14 consecutive days. the device, itself, prompted people to completethe survey with 25 items if they completed all of the items. however, there�s sometreed structure within devices, typically people would be reporting on something lessthan that, those are 18 to 20 items if they didn't go through every possible treed structure.we also have the devices program so we can collect geographic coordinates every fiveminutes between the hours of 9:00 am and 9:00

p.m. those are primarily reflected by thegps receiver on the device. however, the programmer put in an alternative strategy such that thegps lock could not be obtained, the device would go out and look for a wi-fi. the wi-fiaccess point, believe it or not, all the wi-fi access points also had geographic coordinatesassociated with them, thanks to google. we were able to get a secondary data source forwhere people were. for people who completed all eighty-four surveys, all of the data completely,they would have done 14 times the six prompts per day, or 84 surveys, total. couple of screenshots from the device. we�reusing a samsung galaxy. this is not a plug for them. they don't make these anymore, muchto my chagrin. they asked questions like,

where are you? i will show you more questionsin a minute. these are radio buttons. presuming people could only be in one place at one time,a popular radio button and on the left it is syndicated with their home. a questionabout pain would be a slider. the person can tap on the ribbon anywhere or they can puttheir finger on the rectangle and drag it across and the number above the green andgray bar changes based on what they indicate. so, they are using zero to 10 scale, to tellus the pain their experiencing right now. another option for if we wanted to know aboutmultiple choices, one of the questions that we look at is what are the environmental conditionsyou've experienced since the last prompt, they can go through and select a checkboxsection of any of those that they experience.

i�m not going to show you all of these.but the questions i will talk a little bit about today are where are you, what type ofactivity are you engaged in? who is with you? people rate of the level of physical exertion,a zero to 10 scale based on work out of exercise physiology that shows if you put the rightstems with these ratings you get a pretty decent correlation to people's heart rates.a ten is maximum exertion and the zero is complete resting. how much pain are you experiencingright now, again using that typical scaling that you see in a clinical setting where zeromeans no pain and 10 is the worst pain you can imagine. in terms of the environmentalfeatures that we asked about, these were derived largely from the icf and some of the folksthat put that together. we asked which features

bother you since the last prompt. the typicalanswer was none or they could suggest they had problems with accessibility. we laid outwhat accessibility was for people in the training manual, like lack of curb cuts, appropriatesigns, allergens, things like pollen, animals, anything that might cause an allergic reaction.air-quality or smell, smoke, pollution, perfume, climate or weather like outside temperatureand rain or snow, crowds, darkness, lights, bright lights, flashing lights, noisy or loudenvironments, background noise . people's attitudes. negative attitudes. friends, family,service provider attitudes, discrimination. room temperature too hot or cold, trafficor parking, such as congestion or not finding a parking space. car troubles, lack of a ride,bus problems, transportation.

let me show you a few of the preliminary resultswe've been looking at an a few different areas and the way we look at this data. again, togive you a sampling of some of the things we imagine we could do with this kind of data.starting with environmental conditions and then i want to talk about predicting timeat home, locations and activities associated with pain and finally show you work that'sbeen done looking at time geography. this graph shows the median % of periods peopleindicated they had problems. it's a very interesting distribution if you look across all people.we have some individuals in the study who've never had problems. they never indicated anenvironmental problem bothering them in the course of the study. we have a very flat distributionwith a spike on the end where we have a group

of people who indicated there were problemsin nearly all of their response periods. this graph shows breaking that down, then, justbetween differences in the median number of problems people indicated over all 84 timeperiods and breaking it up by whether they had different impairments. the green bar isyes, an individual had a hearing impairment and the orange bar is no, they did not. while it looks like a significant difference,we have a very low end there. and you see looking across, is that in general, if welook at the overall number of environmental problems people reported with different kindsof impairments, they are actually fairly close. the only real significant difference in thisusing the median test is the cognitive area,

where people who have cognitive impairments-- which again, remember, have difficulty with decision-making our memory because ofphysical or emotional problems -- indicating far more significant problems over the time84 time periods than people who did not have a physical or cognitive problems. the otherthing i should mention, is that these groups are not clean. that is, the person could sayi don't have a hearing impairment, but they might have another impairment. these are notexactly oblique groups we are looking at. if we break that down a little bit further,we can begin to look at the basic hypothesis and a lot of the work we do, which is do wesee the kinds of statistically significant differences in the kinds of problems peopleindicate they have in their environment based

on the impairment they reported in our longitudinalsurvey. across the top, we've got the hearing, visual cognitive, walking, dressing, bathing,errands. we have the pain greater than four and i added whether or not people used equipment,partly because of what was in the walking impairment group. on the left-hand side aresome of the different environmental conditions, those a little more interesting to put ona single screen. looking at the salmon colored boxes, it�s showing where there are statisticallysignificant differences, and if the hearing group is indicating a greater problem withaccess, they get a gt, then if they show less problem with access, then it would be lessthan just to show the direction of the significant difference. the red boxes show what we mighthave hypothesized. so that we might think

that a person who has a walking impairmenthas more problems with accessing transportation. they�re red because they are not statisticallysignificant. in fact, these are contrary where we are not seeing any difference on the kindsof environmental problems people are reporting when they report having a walking impairment.this shows clearly that the cognitive group is having significantly greater problems,the number of different environmental conditions if the group indicated they have cognitiveimpairments, than those who did not indicate such. this gives us a sense of at least for these116 people, over this two-week period, where some of those differences are. a little surprising.not exactly clear what the cognitive group

means. it could mean this is a hypothesissuggested by steve kay. it could be a sensitivity to environment based on your answer to thatquestion. that could be more to the memory component of the cognitive question, suchthat people have more difficulties with memory, which might impact the degree to which theyare able to alter their behavior based on environmental conditions, meaning you wouldrepeat the same mistakes over again. clearly, an area worth looking at more. then, we wanted to look at predicting timeat home as the beginning place for understanding the effects of these variables might be onparticipation. we thought this would be the easiest to look at this. it's just the startingplace of this. we start with how do we know

people are at home, and then if we asked themand then we correlated that to the gps coordinates that were collected by the receiver on theunit. so, the gps sensitivity was set at 30 meters so we could get a pretty consistentlock with that and then diep dao used that information to create a hundred meter bufferaround people�s homes, and then we could code whether or not they were going out wasbased on the gps. the coordinates themselves. those correlated very highly. .92 or .93,something like that, with whether or not people said they were at home. so we have a prettygood indication they are there. then we begin to construct logistic regressionequations to look at the effects of different variables on whether or not people are athome, but more than that, to look at not just

contemporaneously but to look at lag effectsof conditions in particular, and what we come down to are pain and exertion on whether ornot people are going to be at home. one of the interesting features of the pain datais that if you look at within subject standard deviation, there is a one unit variabilitywithin subjects of pain that is one standard deviation for that person. a one unit increaserepresents a one unit standard deviation for them. if we see that increasing pain, thenthere�s an 8% increase in likelihood that they will be home at some point in the future.with this particular analysis, the odds ratio on pain is adjusted for all of the variablesthat are listed below, including age, gender, race, education, employment, equipment use,time of day, weekday, impairment,

pain intensity that�s contemporaneouslyat home. so there is a pretty strong relationship betweenpeople experiencing pain six or eight hours before and being home six or eight hours later.we also found something similar for exertion between four and eight hours later if we seea one unit increase in that exertion score, there�s a 5% increase in the likelihoodthat they are home. bryce did some really nice work with this. bryce ward is an economistwith us from the bureau of economic research and he suggested people go home for lots ofreasons. what if we looked at people going home to rest? this particular analysis isnot quite as well developed yet. these odds ratios are adjusted for the six lags, or the12 hours before the observation of someone

being at home resting. but we see somethingquite similar, only the lag is quite different. if you go home to rest, chances are if youhave a one unit increase in pain two hours before, you are likely to go home within thenext time period. there�s a 7% increase in the likelihood in each unit in increasingpain you have pain now, two hours later you are going to go home. exertion is a littlemore lagged. the strongest lag there is if you have to exert yourself by one unit increasesix hours before and six hours later there's a 7% increase in the likelihood you will beat home. these are the kinds of things we tried to do to look at the effect of painand exertion on just going home. one of the things we want to look at next, is to flipit on its head and say what about people who

are more active and going out? i wanted tohighlight, as we�re thinking about the environment, some other interesting descriptive results.and that is what increases pain? where are the statistically significant differencesin pain based on where they go? it turns out being outside is associated with increasesin people�s pain based on where they go. gyms, healthcare facilities, office buildings,other places are unrelated. with respect to exertion, everything is related to hire exertionexcept for going to a church or going to a restaurant. so, what we see is places relatedto what people experience in terms of pain and exertion, we can also look at the kindsof activities they are engaged in. people's pain is increased when they indicate theyare working, doing household chores or shopping.

these are contemporaneous with the activitiesthey are engaged in and the exertion here is kept in for completeness because theseare in comparison to resting. all of these increases in exertion, relative to just restingat home. i'm almost done. what we are aiming for in all of this is whatis the role of the environment in people's exertion? if this is an important variable,pain and exertion and headed home, one of the things we�re working toward is anotherpathway for understanding how the environment limits participation. when you work with peoplethat have pain, you hear this quite often. that is, i went out and went to walmart andi was totally wiped out when i went home and didn't do anything else the rest of the day.if walmart doesn't have great access, or not

a cart available or people don't want to useit, the environment, in some way, is contributing to the exertion that is potentially sendingpeople home. so, again, these are things that we�re still working toward. with this real-timedata about where people are and how much they are exerting themselves and what their painis, we can begin to model, i think, very clearly, another pathway for how very accessible theuniversally designed environment might extend participation for people because it makesit easier for them to move through it. finally, this is work that diep dao developed,an assistant professor in geography here at the university of montana. she pulled togethera couple of different methods to do these graphs. these look at individuals who reportthat they have pain greater than six during

some proportion of the period where they respondedto the ema questions. what she's done, this is a map of missoula. we've taken the streetmap out to preserve the confidentiality of the participants. this line is home. thisis where they spend the majority of their time and this is home over 14 days. it's basically14 lines on each other. these show the trips that they made. diep has used the gps coordinatesto look at when people went out. because it's 12 hours from here to hear, it shows the basicduration how long they were out. and, where they went. if we had all the street maps drawnin here, there are lines that show precisely where they were going. this individual had80 to 83 periods with pain greater than six and you can see from the key�the dots andthe size of them-- are keyed to the amount

of pain they are reporting. pain greater thaneight to 10 is here and, actually i think this scale is off a little bit. i think manyof these are pain greater than 10, greater than six, given this person's source. this person had only 21 of 75 periods withpain. one of the things we�ve observed, by asking people about their experience withpain throughout the day, we see these people that have more consistent pain tend to havepain whether they�re home or out. if you have that much regular pain, you can't necessarilyavoid it when you go about. maybe there's little relationship because these look liketimes where they headed back home. so that, effectively, we see in the statistics, mightbe represented graphically where i�m out,

i have pain-boom!-i head home. not quite sureabout that, but that's one hypothesis. people that have more temporary, intermittentpain, tend to have graphs more like this. where they might have low pain when they areout, but rarely do they have the big pain. if you have intermittent pain, people learnsigns and symptoms and signals of pain and they may be changing their activity on thebasis of their experience. this kind of work and what we are headed toward is to try toshow graphically, where people are going, how their experiences might affect that andone of the things that dr. dao is presently working on is how to help us visualize thesein a more aggregated way so you can look at subgroups across an example to understandwhat people are doing.

lastly, just for your consideration. peoplemay adapt their spatial patterns to minimize encountering problematic environments. andif so, then the environments create behavioral patterns that limit participation. these problematicenvironments determine behavioral patterns that, in turn, these define the social problemsof inaccessibility that we can begin to show. if people adapt and don't go particular places,we can now show, graphically, where the problem is. finally, is the effect of the environmenton exertion of pain another pathways for understanding accessibility and participation? great. thank you, craig. that was great. atthis point, we are going to open it up for more discussion. you can begin by specificallyasking craig about his presentation and also

more broadly going back to wayne's presentation,as well. tom, you may have some opening comments? craig, this is fantastic to see the work comingtogether. thank you very much for putting it together and sharing it with us. i sawso many connections with wayne�s presentation. but the last one, i would just ask maybe ifyou would comment. wayne had talked about how the creation of the historical infrastructureand some of the places had made some predetermined decisions. you commented about how environmentsmay be problematic designed environments. could you comment, do you see a connectionbetween that? you know, i think the problematic environmentis clearly an inaccessible environment we all defined as a problem. i think one of theconnections that i'm seeing to what wayne

is doing, is that i think we are going beyondthat in some way, to look at a problem. an environment can be problematic because ofnoise. a problem -- the environment can be problematic because of traffic. we all knowthat places in our hometowns where traffic can be a problem and we avoid those areas.and so the infrastructure creates the problem to begin with. we then adapt to them and figureout ways around them. and i think the connection is probably around universal design on theone hand, but also around information and helps people recognize the impact of the environmenton their behavior and their patterns. i think i�ll stop there. thank you. it looks like steve kaye has aquestion for you, craig. i will read it. craig,

how could you go about confirming your hypothesisthat it is the pain that since people home? for one thing, what we've been trying to do,and thanks, steve, for the question. we�ve been trying to rule out other possibilities.so, if you look at the amount of time people have been out, or whether a weekday or a weekend,or just fatigue in general, we tried to take the day that we have and rule out other featuresof it. what we've seen, in that, and what i tried to show real quickly and that slide,was the things that we have in our data file, our results, our lag results on pain, arevery robust. they�re kind of that 8% to 10% increase in likelihood for each increasein pain. so for this, i think even this kind of longitudinal ema pain data, it's stillobservational, right? we are not going to

have the control or ability to change painand watch that effect. perhaps, we can do things that change the environment, that wouldhave an effect on pain and exertion and look for effects on the other end, in terms ofwhat people participate in. we were just talking about that this morning. if we did a randomassignment of improving and increasing the available carts in walmart and then followpeople for the rest of the day, we might be able to vary the environment in ways thatallow us to look at future participation based on a reduction in exertion. that is just onethat came up today off the top of my head. great. thank you. it looks like gale whiteneckis typing a comment or question. as we wait for that, i welcome other questions and commentsfrom staff here at rtc or attendees on the

call. hi this is gale. i will just ask my question.when increases, as you are showing as x number of hours before returning home, does thatmean pain itself tells the person to go home? or, does it subside? and is that a predictorof whether they actually go home are not? and is the pain less at home? that's a great question and i'm going to haveto think off the top of my head about those correlational results. pain is less at home,is what i remember off the top of my head. we don't have those results built in yet�thatlook at, okay, you�re out, you have more pain, you go home, your pain reduces, what'sthe time frame? what are the lags of going

out to participate again? we are not thereyet. if i understand your question, the contemporaneous relationship between being pain and beingat home is that you have less pain at home. thank you. i guess where i was headed, wasif you have a spike in pain but two hours later you aren't yet home, but it's subsided,is that a predictor of not going home? and if it's still there, a predictor of goinghome? i�m not quite understanding the lag that you have. right. that's an interesting part of the lag,itself. it's just that crude. it's just looking at that two hour -- when we�re looking atresting at home or that kind of six to eight hours if we are looking at home. and it'scrossing days. literally, we are just saying,

here are the 84 different time periods, andwe are looking at lagging back, those two or three lags and those are just the overallresults. what happens in between, we don't know. at this point. lots to study. craig, this is meg. i wondered if the exertionscale has been validated in populations experiencing that level of pain and whether there are someopportunities to incorporate some things like fitbit that into this kind of study designto get some of that convergence, creating exertion and heart rate. you know, the galaxies and the smartphonesall have accelerometers -- built into them.

it was on my wish list to collect that data,as well. but, this project had gotten big enough. we actually didn't propose the gpsas part of the data collection to begin with. we proposed to use ipods. as we got furtherinto it, we realized the samsungs included the gps receiver at that time and we switchedto that device. as far as exertion scale goes and populations with pain, i don't have ahypothesis for why it wouldn't be but i can't point you directly to that resource that wouldsuggest that that exertion scale works as well in a group of people with pain. i have to ask this question. this is tom.wayne, one of the measures that you've collected had to do with something like the spiritualaesthetic experience of peace and harmony

in the parks. solitude and almost a senseof healing the soul. i wonder whether we could explore the relationship between the experienceof pain, excursions into natural lands and that kind of sense of healing, how that mightfit together. if it does. craig, i'm curious what you guys might say to that. thanks, tom. i can comment on that line ofresearch. it's the whole kind of getting grounded, spiritual connection, moving away from thetypical distractions and trappings of the environment that craig just described. it'sa very consistent theme in the way people talk about experiences and parks, particularlyin these big impressive national parks like glacier. there is a very deep kind of senseof connection that happens. it can be transformative.

it's the sort of thing where people go thereand they decide to change their jobs, or decide to move to a different place. they have thatmoment of reflection about their life. large decisions come from, change makers in college.craig, you are welcome over here any time. so there are actually scales that have beendeveloped and kinds of questions that approach this sort of thing. it's a difficult thingto manage from a park manager�s perspective. but, it's a great qualitative way to talkabout the depth of the meaning of these experiences in these places. i would just add to that. for example, theboardwalk that goes up to avalanche creek in glacier national park. i will always viewthat as a basic accessibility feature for

people that use wheeled devices. and havenot really considered with how that deals with the problem of uneven surfaces on trailsthat allow people to go back and see avalanche creek and how that comes out without the highexertion that would be a problem for a lot of people. i think that part of the data, and part ofthe american survey questions, like if you have serious difficulty walking or climbingstairs, we start picking up a lot of people with pain that don't use equipment. and sofor them to have a walkway that reduces their exertion, this could have a very high benefitfor their quality experience, i would think. that's a whole new layer of thinking aboutthis, craig. i think it would be really valuable.

when we look at a place like glacier, therereally are only a few accessible trails designed that way within this million acre park. thatisn't unnoticed by the management staff. a lot of is legacy and zoning and things likethat that try to curtail more development. but, it's a tough place for people that needassistance with the wheelchair, for example. not many places you can go. yeah, that wouldbe a great rationale. with our society aging, park visitors are aging considerably. theaverage age of the visitor there is similar to your study. close to 50 and we�re seeingfewer young people. the baby boomers are coming. they are going to, i think, have a lot ofthese concerns. thanks, wayne. this is tracy. to follow-upthose comments, you may have addressed it

in part, for bob liston who asked this questionthrough the text chat. wayne, do you see the parks taking into consideration accessibilityissues on new paths that are put in? they don't necessarily need to be boardwalks orpaved. are you doing anything to address billy's issue about where we might want to go, ratherthan where we can get to? i hope this makes sense. yes. that's a great question. it makes totalsense, tracy. they are. when you do a plan for parks, at a minimum, they have to thinkthrough ada kind of considerations. they are genuinely interested in who the audience forthe parks are and to be as accommodating, regardless of whether it's age or gender,international, or people with disabilities.

these plans are the times when those thingsget developed. the big issue that happens with a place like glacier, and which may makeit a bad example, is that there are so many different kinds of demands. people want morebiking on the going to the sun road. and people want more dog walking. there's so many peopleinvested in the place, that they want a lot of everything. i think there is a tendencyto back off and say, -- and there's a lot of people that want no change at all. thereis a tendency to be conservative in their development. but, i'm sure of it, in thiscase, that they are thinking about -- if we have limitations within the going to the sunroad corridor or about access or vehicle types or alternative mobility types, where else,in this park or in this part, can we design

some things that are going to be much moreavailable to society? yes. it's in the discussion. but, these plans are kind of political documents.the advocacy groups that are going to make sure that people with disabilities concernsare heard loud and clear and need to be involved in the planning process, and need to be commentingon alternatives. i think i've seen that have a big effect, as well. great. thank you, wayne. another questionfrom gale whiteneck. wayne seems to conduct studies in order to make an interventionaldecision. craig, what thoughts do you have about designing your research to help facilitateintervention? thanks, gail. appreciate the question. we�vekind of thought about that in a couple of

different ways. on the one hand, the kindsof maps that wayne showed, they were great. ii loved the moving maps showing where peopletravel. i'd like to learn that technology. we can show it at a systems level, where peoplego. we can show people with different characteristics in real time, where the barriers are, wherethey don't go. that kind of mapping and data could be used at the systems advocacy levelto build up the infrastructure that's more accessible and less problematic. i liked theinclusion of noise which bothers some people a lot more than others. it�s a problematicenvironment. at the individual level, i think there�s opportunities for education. thatis, if a person makes the personal choice that i don't want to use wheeled mobilityat walmart because i don't want to look disabled,

the education to help them understand thetrade-off which might the in terms of social or recreational or other kinds of activitiesthey might do later on in that day is part of the trade-off, as well. that may be a messagethat may be useful for people to hear. finally, this kind of interactive technology has interventionwritten all over it. and so pacing is an important part of treatment and pain so that peopleare not doing too much activity to trigger that pain. so, these kinds of methods couldeasily become ways to help people monitor exertion and to pace their activities a littlebetter and avoid some of those spikes. that's one of the real difficulties in treatment,is getting people to gradually increase their activity level and this kind of monitoringdevice could certainly help them do that.

great. thank you. i want to throw in an addition to that. ithink what craig showed us is really game changer in the way that i think about this.just knowing how time lags work. we tend to catch people at a snapshot in time, even ina diary sense. now, not only can you look at how geographic distribution is happeningspatially, but you can think about it in terms of cause and effect with different experiences.i would love to know, for example, how running into a large crowd or the inability to park,for example, at avalanche, which is one of our big problems. it's a great trail if youcan get there. if you drive there at 10:00 in the morning and you can't park, what doyou do next? do you come back and adapt? so,

tomorrow, i'm coming back at 9:00 in the morning?we just aren't able to capture that stuff very well, yet. you are showing me that theability is right there. if we could merge your understanding of timelags with mine of geographic spatial stuff, we'd really be able to do something great. thanks, wayne. christianne, do you want topose a question? 1:22:00 it's not coming through. you can typeit, as well. or, comment. just make sure you are unmuted. as we wait for christianne totype out the comment a question, i realize we are almost half past the hour, which iswhen we were scheduled to finish this discussion. for those of you who need to go, just thankyou for your participation. we will have a

recording of this entire seminar availablein the near future, as well, the transcript. you are free to sign off and we will makesure you get those connections. for anyone else who would like to continue with thisdiscussion, please feel welcome to stay on the line. also, if you have other questions,other people have questions while christianne is typing hers, please submit them. i had a question. this is meg traci. for wayneabout the infrared sensors and your ability to estimate aid and detect gear. are you ableto detect whether someone is using a mobility device like a wheelchair or a hand cycle onthe trails? there were two parts to that particular study.one was a human observation. so, that's how

we got the activity style, that sort of thing.the infrared counter will just tell you a number. it was broke up this way or that way.you could, in some situations, use the kind of counters we use for cars, which are magnetic.if you put a magnetic counter on a trail, it would be able to tell you if it was a bicycleor a wheeled device. you wouldn't know which. now, there are other things that we've donelike used camera traps. blurred the focus so you are not seeing an individual engagingin detail, but you can tell whether they are carrying a back pack or not. you can tellif they are on a wheeled device or not. and, get an estimate. great. thank you, wayne. okay. it looks likechristianne�s comment came through. she

says thanks for two great presentations. wayne,i was struck by your findings on crowding, fear of crowding were unfounded as visitorsfound ways of distributing. is this the new finding? we have a very interesting -- thank you, christianne.it's nice to see you typing. it's been a while since we talked. we have a very interestinghistory with this crowding issue. in some places, like arches, where i started, it'shighly apparent and people will complain about crowding as a major issue for them. and alot of other places, the people that manage the area may actually have a higher sensitivityto crowding than the visitors, themselves. the visitors, as craig aptly laid out, havedone adaptations for the good. if you go to

logan pass on an august day, if you are frommontana, you know it will be crowded. you've still chosen to go there. you've either, inyour mind, decided another goal is more important like showing logan pass to my family, or you'vedecided that another experience may be bonding with my family would be more important thansolitude. so, we see that happen quite a bit and i dosee a difference in the way people with long-term attachments to the place, like managers, feelabout crowding compared to visitors. usually, 30% to 40% will show up very consistently,in studies around the country. 30% to 40% of the people will, on a scale of 1-9, feelcrowded above a three or four, much like craig laid out. that's a substantial number of people.we think our national park system gets about

250 million visits a year. so, if 30% of themhave an issue, that's a big number of people. it should be taken seriously. in any givencontext, it may be more or less. well, just to comment on that, wayne, i canimagine helping people tailor their experiences based on some self-assessment. it would befairly easy to put together an app that says, what are your values? are you looking forsolitude, or the common experience? do you have to go to yellowstone falls, because that'swhere you�re going to find a lot of people. we need something different? if it's familybonding, you might be able to tailor where people go based on what their values are andi think we can do the same in our work in terms of community work and how people accesscommunity and choices that they make that

have trade-offs in terms of exertion and potentially,pain. very good point. i had written that down whenyou were talking. one of the strategies for management that we talked about quite a bitnow that we have this data, is to share it with the visitors, so they can make an informedchoice. if we show them our use level graphics, or time it takes to park at logan pass ona busy day and tell them, if you go there now, this is what you�re going to get. ifyou wait four hours, it will be very different. you choose, depending on how much time youhave and how important it is to you. and i think they will redistribute quite a bit. we need to communicate with them so the data,if we can make that digestible, that's a nice

thing to have. this is meg. i wondered in terms of thesenegative projected ratings. are they in any way correlated with negative environmentalimpacts? do users have the intuitive sense that this crowding or other things like noisereally is impacting the wilderness? very much so. visitors to a place like glacier,like a community, have a wide range of sophistication in there way of assessing a setting. someare very astute wilderness advocates that will think about the sound from a harley davidson,for example. they think of it in terms of their own experience and whether it was annoyingor distracting or preventing them from cutting the rope with society and actually gettinga spiritual restoration that they want. they

also think of it in the terms of the cumulativeeffect it has on the idea of wilderness, or wild things, in general, the pristine qualityof the place or the ecological impacts that could happen as a result of that sound intrusion.you have some folks way out on that end of the continuum and then you have other peoplethat are walking up to avalanche lake on a 10-foot wide trail with roots exposed andtrees and they think it's the most beautiful place they've ever been. they don't see, youknow� that highlights the role of personal factorsand that's been one of the surprising things to me. just asking people the question, whathave been the environmental conditions that bothered you? and to see the distribution.for some folks, no, nothing bothers me, it�s

all right. for others, everything bothersthem. there's quite a lot, in terms of intervention that can be done in that as well. unpackingand teasing some of that out may be an important part of intervention, back to your question,gale. there are things we can do as clinicians to help people develop a little more tolerancefor things like noise and traffic that can increase their quality of experience in alot of places. i would also add, craig, this sense of powerthat you have some impact and some ability to impact the environment. thinking aboutsome of your comments, wayne, and how that would translate to people with disabilitiesin terms of their perspective and power to be an advocate for change of the environment.how they potentially rate their experience

either from a very personal or individualperspective or thinking about the community accessibility, broadly, for the community. that's a really interesting, intervening variablein this. when people are not empowered-- what does that mean for your experience of theenvironment? very insightful. well, i want to thank both of you and everyoneelse for a fascinating discussion this morning. very grateful. one of the things tracy andi would ask of folks, if you've got suggestions of topical connections that we might makein the future, let us know. having said that. wayne, thank you so very much. craig, thankyou very much. i think we are going to try to have another one of these sessions in february.so, tracy, thank you.

thanks, everyone. we will end the sessionnow. if you have questions or comments, you can email me directly. i will put that upon the screen. feel free to sign off. thanks, everyone. thanks, tracy. appreciate your organizingthis. it�s been great. yes, me too. please keep me on the mailinglist. [event concluded]